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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 08:02:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/03/2008 06:17:59
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Paladin is better.
Paladin can make the exact amount of DPS of Nightmare offering the same defence with it or can have about double defence for 20% less DPS.
But the nightmare can never achive Paladin's defencive ability so is less flexible.
Can the Paladin fit four damage mods and still tank effectively? Can you get Marauders to level 5 faster than Caldari BS level 5 for that last 5% laser damage bonus?
No.
Is that fourth damage mod doing anything?
Is the 11 day difference between racial battleship V and Marauders V more than the time it takes for a Caldari to train beams or an Amarrian to train shields?
No.
The Nightmare seems a little silly to me. Lasers are only good against the Amarrian enemies. And those enemies do em/therm damage which the Nightmare is weak against. With any pirate faction you do missions against you will find either your tank isnÆt all that good or your weapons arenÆt that good.
Also there is the issue of skills. Sansha ships are the only ones with lasers and shields. The skills to use a Nightmare well donÆt transfer to any other races ships. But I guess if youÆre one of those 60mil+ sp players who can fly both Caldari and Amarrian ships perfectly itÆs no problem for you.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 11:58:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Mike Shynoda
yes, alot.put some implants for dmg and you will see what happens.
Yup the fourth damage mod brings the DPS form 1030 or so to 1080 or so. Still seems like a waste of a slaot that could be used to get a better or more cap stable tank on the Nightmare. Add implants in any situation and performance improves.
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when you have 12mil sp yes it's a problem.but when you have over 30 mil sp you already havea shield trained. (specialy if you fly nano-shield-speedtank wich most of the eve players do)
The average Eve player is about 3 months old IIRC. And is my point still not valid? If you have Amarrian skills it seems much better to go with the Paladin. And if you have Caldari skills it seems much better to go Golem. If you have great shield and laser skills it seems much better to go for the Nightmare. If you are just starting out and only want to mission run then the Nightmare wins again.
Quote:
with the NIghtmare bonus + dmg mods + implants i can blow your nice shiny raven t2 in less then 40 secs.
I donÆt fly a Raven. I fly a Paladin. If I could fly a Raven as well I might be in a Nightmare too. But I have no desire to train Caldari ships and shields for what MIGHT be a slight improvement over the ship I can already fly.
Can the Nightmare out damage the Golem in Gurista missions? Can the Nightmare out tank the Paladin in Sansha mission? If the answer to both these questions is yes, then youÆve sold me. IÆd start training today.
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you need to have just caldari bs lvl 5 some shiled skills and amarr skills up to lvl 5 because it's primary an amarrian ship.
For me thatÆs about 90 days just for the shield and Caldari BS 5. And it only applies to the Sansha ships. IÆd have to train up hybrids and or shields as well to get any use out of my new Caldari ships. ItÆs just not worth it for me or any other Amarr only pilots. If it works for you or you just really want to fly these cool Sansha ships then go ahead. IÆm sticking with my Paladin.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 12:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Yarlan Zey
I have both .. paladin and nightmare.
At the begining I used nightmare and I was looting with paladin. Then I figured out that Paladin have the same efficiency but you can loot while doing the missions.
that save time really.
also who care who have better tank ? I`m doing all missions with paladin without tank. just with one LAR II.
even EA5 and Worlds Collide.
You need only gank.
also if you have money and skills to use paladin then its pity to use it with T2 mods.. invest in some officers things and you`ll see the difference.
pala is my choise definitely
I'd like very much to see your fit sir. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 12:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Fuazzole
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Setup stuff
Your set ups are not very good, 1st
you have a PG rig on the pala....simply to acomidate a T2 rep, any one that can aford a pala can aford a 90mill amarr navy rep and not need that PG rig.
your Nightmare has a "sick tank" ~524, on my EFT this lasts 1:30min with guns on, or sustains 330 with guns off, that's not a sick tank, it's quite low, I wouldn't take such ISK into a lvl 4 with 330.
These DPS are quotes on max-dmg ammo, Tachyons have poor tracking so hitting at 40km is a matter. Only the Nightmare has the +tracking bonus, It would be really advised to squeez a track comp onto the Pala
This raises a good point. How do you keep the Nightmare cap stable? Admittedly I know little about the ship shield tanking but most of the Sansha ships setups seem to cap out at 30sec-3min. How are you Nightmare guys keeping these ships going?
Also, that is a very good point about tracking. The original Paladin had a tracking bonus but no damage bonus; when people complained about a tech 2 BS that did the same DPS as the widely criticized lolpoc CCP change the tracking to a damage bonus.
If you have no TC you will kill thos BSs off in no time. But you will have to wait an hour while your drones finish off a swarm of 250k cruisers orbiting at 20k.
CCP please change the web bonus to a tracking bonusà I have drones to shoot
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.31 19:33:00 -
[5]
What's all this about useing a PDS? Do you really fit a Paladin with one or is this EFT garbage? |
Mr Reeth
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.04.01 10:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: AshNikon
Nightmare is the way to go! a lot of isk to get it right but it is uber
(note i have amarr bs IV and caldary bs IV also large enrgy wepons level IV)
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
Shadow Serpentis Power Diagnostic System
Shadow Serpentis Power Diagnostic System
Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
True Sansha Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
True Sansha Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
True Sansha Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu
Ancillary Current Router I
Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Now this is how it suposed to look :D anywas it is not some eft garbage it is easyer to post with eft a setup,and yes it dose cost 4.5 bil but can tank 1.5 k dps of em termal sutainabal as long as u have charges and u can have a total of 24 (including in the boosters) that is like 5 min of boosting till u run out of charges :D that is perma boosting
Hammerhead II x5
If you spend the same amount of isk on the Paladin you'll get even better tanking vs em/therm. And the tank will be cap stable. |
Mr Reeth
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.04.01 13:16:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mr Reeth on 01/04/2008 13:25:37
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Actually every number suggests that the Nightmare is superior in every important way if you properly pimp it. Both can tank fine, but the Nightmare has more slots to boost its gank, and an extra bonus to boost its gank. And at the end of the day, gank IS the one thing defining a good pimp mission ship. And your oh so great cap stability is 99% irrelevant.
Okay, lets take cap stability off the table.
What do you mean by properly pimp? Nearly every Nightmare setup has deadspace mods. ThatÆs a good way to get ganked. And all the comparisons IÆve seen compare 5 billion isk Nightmares vs 2 billion isk Paladins.
You only need 3 slots for damage mods. The fourth does next to nothing and the fifth does nothing. So there really is no difference between them.
The tracking bonus on the nightmare is pretty pimp. But the Paladin has room for a tracking comp which makes the tracking the same. And the Paladin also gets a web bonus which means the Paladin can hit those close cruisers and fast frigs a lot better. And if you really want super tracking the Paladin can fit for it at the expense of cap stability which you said was irrelevant. The Nightmare would end up with a 10 second tank or lose damage.
And the tank is much better on the Paladinà there should be no question about this. The only enemies you should really be fighting are weak to EM/thermal. And those ships do EM/thermal, which the Nightmare is weak against.
Giant cargo hold means you can use cap boosters if you like.
Salvage while fighting means you can do missions a lot faster.
One extra high means if you don't want to salvage you can overheat the guns a lot easier. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.04.01 14:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Don Juanito
that tracking bonus lets you hit even the small ships before they become an issue. and if the pally has room for TC's, the NM with its myriad of midslots that in most missions are not needed for tank certainly does as well.
if you fit a web to a laser ship you're doing it wrong.
salvaging while missioning? overrated tbh. If that is saving you time, you're not killing fast enough.
Wrong.
The Paladin and the Nightmare have the same tracking if the paladin fits a TC. I have yet to see a Nightmare setup that does not use all mids for tank and cap.
Why not fit a web if I have the extra room and the extra cap? ItÆs use is fairly limited but I kill those BSs so fast the drones are still working on the frigs. And some frigs are exceptionally hard shelled and IÆd rather on gun pop them than wait 2 minutes for my drones.
Salvaging while running missions is great! Skip the frigs and cruisers and take the BSs and I donÆt have to bother coming back in a destroyer. And if I leave a few wrecks behind I donÆt really care.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.04.01 16:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nu Wa
Edited by: Nu Wa on 01/04/2008 15:12:02
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Wrong.
The Paladin and the Nightmare have the same tracking if the paladin fits a TC.....
Nightmare still has better tracking than a paladin loaded with faction TC + Tracking Script...
37.5% vs 35%
unless, of course, you get an officer TC.
Well, you got me there. The Nightmare has a 2.5% tracking bonus. Which in DPS terms means what? Nothing? And since everyone is fitting best complex shield boosters on their nightmares why not fit a slightly better TC? |
Mr Reeth
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.04.01 18:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Uh, well... you know, you can fit a TC on the Nightmare, too! 
Read the third to last post on the second page.  |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.04.01 18:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nu Wa
Nightmare still has 2.5% tracking bonus over paladin AFTER paladin has spent 1 mid slot and money for the faction TC. The bonus is passive therefore you won't find yourself forgetting to turn it on.
In terms of DPS, the more tracking the better.
Getting an officer item in order to stay competitive doesn't make for a strong argument.
I still like the paladin though because it looks way better... nightmare looks like beef Teriyaki on a stick :)
Yes, there is a 2.5% tracking diff.
ISK for faction mods is a non-issue when talking about ships that cost 800-900 mil.
The Paladin mids are not vital slots. They can be used for anything you want. AB, 1-4 TCs, a bunch of webbers, cap booster it's all just gravy.
You forget to turn on modules? 
As far as buying insanly expensive mods... most Nightmare setups use a billion isk booster. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Well you haven't seen a good nightmare setup yet then. Mine actually runs with a SS TC and TWO Officer TEs (which are actually better than TCs since the script nerf). So it will have a whole world of better tracking AND optimal than your Paladin.
Okay, lets see your full setup then.
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And it has more mids to spare for SeBo and AB. And yes, that means it tanks fine with just four slots. Thats the beauty of the Gist XL Boosters. And that Gist Booster is probably a large part of the reason why the pimp Nightmare is better than the pimp Paladin.
Four slot tank? Okay now I really want to see your setup.
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And you mention hitting cruisers within web range so much, I gotta wonder what kind of missions you run? Cannot be Amarr (which are really the only agents justifying either ship), as I run those and cruisers pretty much never make it close enough to me to even hit them with a domi web...
I do run Amarr. And I mention frigs and cruisers. You never have ships inside 15km? Are you hitting the cruisers first? You ever have to wait for your drones to kill off a few frigs?
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Sure, with cheaper gear the Paladin might be equal or even better than the Nightmare, but seriously, if you fly such a ship, your goal should be to properly pimp it. And that business of suicide ganking is probably cooked a whole lot hotter than it is actually eaten. Not to mention it has zero impact on what the ships capabilites are.
ôà cooked a whole lot hotter than it is actually eaten.öà I like that. And you probably are right.
What I like about this thread is we are both arguing that our ship is better. In most ship discussions people argue that their ship is worse. It speaks volumes for the quality of both ships.
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